Margaret Alice HOWARTH or Alice Margaret Howarth

[glendan561]

Agreed. I have gone through the Lancashire BMD records as well as GRO UK using the three versions of Howarth (Haworth, Howorth & Howarth) and then cross checking Alice, Margaret Alice and Alice Margaret. There aren't too many between 1858 and 1862, mostly Margaret Alice. In 1858 there are two births registered for Margaret Alice Haworth, one in the  J quarter, the other in the S quarter, in 1859 there is one in the M quarter, 1861 in the J quarter and 1862 J quarter. In 1859 there is one birth registered for Margaret Alice Howorth in the D quarter.  With the Howarth spelling there is one Margaret Alice in the S quarter of 1859, one in the S quarter of 1861 in Bolton and one in the S quarter of 1862 also in Bolton, both with a mother's maiden name of Holt.

I found no Alice Margaret Howarth registrations between 1858 and 1862, there is an Alice Margaret Haworth registered in the J quarter of 1860 and no registrations for Howorth.

There are numerous Alice Howarth and Haworth.             

I am eliminating people as I work through where they might have come from, this isn't some half hearted attempt to untangle this particular family history. If it was, I'd simply rubber stamp what people have come up with on Ancestry and be done with it. The other Howarth family on the Dunfillan can be traced through the NZ Voter registrations if you're referring to the James and Alice Howarth with their two small children, Margaret A and John O. John has a particularly distinctive middle name. Alice died in about 1933.

I'm originally from NZ.

[Lucy2]

Your first post  -  death, 1891, Alice Margaret HOWARTH -
"on the death certificate it states Albert was living with his mother, aged 4 years "

This seems like an unusual piece of information to find on a death certificate?

Yes, I agree it does appear unusual to refer to a surviving child however, it certainly records "Issue yes - 1 male aged 4 years."

Just to clarify ... the Death cert. does NOT tell you that "Albert was living with his mother".

It tells you that "the deceased had 1 Male child aged 4 years".    [Only the deceased's still living issue is recorded on NZ death records. ]

   ~  Lu

[Lucy2]

   *  C O R RE C T I O N   *

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-XHTS-3SW?i=14&cc=1609792&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AFSY9-TZ6
    ^   If you have another closer look at this passenger list to Otago per "Dunfillan" - arr. January 1874, you'll see the HOWARTH group - Alice 62 - ex Lancashire  /  Elizabeth 34 - weaver / and Alice 15 - were "Colonial-nominated immigrants" meaning that relatives or friends already living in the Colony, had paid all or part of their passage money.  And go to the end column of this entry - there is a note alongside of which are the words "Southland 96 Free".  [96 is probably the reference number for this "family group" - free means the passage money had been already paid.]   ... OTAGO  102 (... and some further words about payment not yet received )

Deleting section above  as it applied to the next passenger on list  : [My transcription error. ]

Substituting  >   OTAGO  102 >  which is the Colonial-Nominated reference for the HOWARTH group of three women.

    ~  Lu

[glendan561]

My error in concluding the death cert mentions Albert living with her. That information came from a report in the Christchurch Star which states he was living with Mrs Williams.

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TS18911124.2.37
Star (Christchurch), Issue 7138, 24 November 1891, Page 4

With regard to 15 year old Alice Howarth, I have placed her to one side as the eleven year gap between arriving at Port Chalmers and giving birth to Annie in 1885 doesn't make a lot of sense. I obtained a death certificate for a Margaret Alice HOWARTH b. October 1859 Elton, Bury Lancs. Parents James & Lydia (Nuttall). This seemed to have potential until 1864 when Lydia died aged 37. In the 1871 census return it appears James remarried Ann however, on Lancashire BMD, there are both Ann and Mary Ann but when checking them against the birth of the youngest girl, Selina, none of the mother's surnames match with those on the  GRO UK. I've been told the Lancashire records are variable.  As I tracked the family through the census returns it became clear James died sometime between 1871 and 1881 - I haven't finished checking through those details, but it did look as though Margaret A was still living in the UK in 1891 so she isn't the one, although again, I will put her in my to be reviewed pile which is growing larger each day

I'm still to receive the birth and death info on Annie and continue to work my way through the Margaret Alice (Howarth, Howorth and Haworth) birth registrations. I have applied for a birth certificate for Margaret Alice Haworth b in the M quarter of 1859, Rossendale, Preston, mother's maiden name Farnworth.

According to the Lancashire records there are current no records for an Alice Margaret Howorth, Haworth or Howarth, born between 1857 and 1862. There is only one Alice Margaret recorded on the GRO UK, J Quarter of 1860, mother's maiden name Orrell, so one more name to add to the list.

[Lucy2]

Hi Glenda

I do have some additional information for you - still coming because, like you, I'm having to contend with the spelling variations of "HOWARTH" in most records.   

I do feel now that there is a strong possibility of a connection with the HOWARTH women per the "Dunfillan" ... and some others who also arrived at the same time.     Can't spill the beans just yet until I get my notes into a more comprehensible format, but a random find on a cemetery record has lead me off on another trail (or rabbit hole ?)   Just hope my hunch is correct.

Will also update you with info for Alice HOWARTH (aged 15).

   ~  Lu

[shanreagh]

'HOWARTH group - Alice 62 - ex Lancashire  /  Elizabeth 34 - weaver / and Alice 15'

Just while we are waiting for possibly exciting news from Lu, I wondered last night if anyone had investigated what had happened to Elizabeth Howarth the 34 year old who had travelled with Alice 62, who died on the way out, and Alice 15 years.
I did some very sketchy searching in NZBDM and found a couple of Elizabeth Howarth  marriages soon after 1874 to an Edward Hare and the second one to a Charles Barnett. 

Have you looked at her Glendan561?  I just wondered who had looked after Alice the 15 year old.  If  she was the daughter of Elizabeth she may have gone to live with her, if one of these marriages is a possibility and then taken on the surname of her stepfather and the same idea if she was a late daughter of Alice senior.  Elizabeth may have taken her sister in to live with her.

[Lucy2]

Yes shanreagh ... I have explored lots of avenues connected to this HOWARTH family (per "Dunfillan") ... and yes, I do have further information for Elizabeth and Alice.   
As I said ... will add it here shortly (but given the effort I've put in so far, will be peeved if someone else decides they're gonna post it .    )

    ~  Lu

[glendan561]

I briefly looked at Elizabeth Howarth from the Dunfillan through the Voter Registrations on Ancestry but heeding Lu's advice, I made an executive decision not to go down that rabbit hole until Margaret Alice was sorted. Taking the confusion regarding her name into consideration, I double checked on NZBDM and found that when she registered the births of Annie and Albert she was Margaret Alice Howarth and the same for Annie's death.

[Lucy2]

Hi Glenda

The Alice HOWARTH aged 15 per "Dunfillan", is not the Alice you seek.

This Alice was the illegitimate child of the Elizabeth HOWARTH (34) who travelled with her. (Think I mentioned I suspected that in one of my earlier posts ? )    [Alice senior, 62, was possibly the mother and grandmother of these two, but still have to confirm that. ]

Alice (the younger) went on to marry Andrew SMALL in 1874 (there were many children from that union).

Elizabeth, the mother of Alice, married Charles BARNETT in 1877.   It is stated in the marriage notice that she hailed from Bradford, Yorkshire. 
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/LWM18770104.2.3

There is much detail in local newspapers of the various "business" drama that went on between Elizabeth and her brother Richard, of Queenstown.    Richard appears to have been the person who sponsored Elizabeth and the two Alices to NZ ... and other family members (and friends)  were also the beneficiaries of his generosity.    [ He was bankrupted a short time later. ]

I have the baptism for Alice and also the Obituary for Elizabeth ... to be added in following post.

     ~  Lu                                                      see following post  > >