Author Topic: Tas Archives - Register of Banns (1834) MaryAnn ROBINSON / Henry DOWSE or PALMER  (Read 1598 times)

Offline TasTyger

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Re: Tas Archives - Register of Banns (1834) MaryAnn ROBINSON / Henry DOWSE or PALMER
« Reply #18 on: Friday 29 April 22 01:26 BST (UK) »
Could this be Mary Ann Palmer née Robinson dying in 1850 in Hobart - https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD35-1-2p278j2k Identified as a carpenter’s wife, age 52, informant was a Frederick Roff, a friend. Age is way off but this Frederick Roff married in 1852 to an Eliza Robinson (sister?) and a Henry Watson was also a witness to the marriage - https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD37-1-11p133j2k If Henry Palmer was a widower through the 1850s and his only daughter and family are leaving for the mainland circa 1856 it’s possible he went with them so may be looking for him in Victoria?

Offline judb

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Re: Tas Archives - Register of Banns (1834) MaryAnn ROBINSON / Henry DOWSE or PALMER
« Reply #19 on: Friday 29 April 22 02:06 BST (UK) »
There is a public tree for this couple which seems mostly well-researched and has some documentation shown.
Apologies if some of this has already been posted.

The tree gives a death date for Henry Palmer 16 Dec 1877, Launceston and for Mary Ann 6 Nov 1864, Hobart - however there is no link to documentation for these dates.

Mary Ann was born in Hobart, 8 December 1817 (shown on Australian Birth Index)
Mary Ann Robinson
Birth Date: 8 Dec 1817, Tasmania, registered 1818 at Registration Place, Hobart, Tasmania, #581 
Her parents were married: 
Edward Robinson, Elizabeth Burn, 24 Dec 1816 at Hobart, #245

Edward was a convict (born Lincolnshire) arriving per Indefatigable, 1812.  By 1817 he was appointed 'overseer of Government carpenters'
Elizabeth"s birth (from Australian Birth Index), noting date of registration of the birth - perhaps she needed it for her marriage.
Elizabeth Burn
Birth Date1797; Birth Place Tasmania
Registration Year1816, registered at Registration Place, Hobart, Tasmania, #474

Edward and Elizabeth apparently had 8 children.

Judith

DYER - Wilts, London, Somerset, MIDLANE - Hants, Wilts, SONE - Hants, WRIGHT - London, Hants, SEAGER - Deptford, DWYER, FERGUSON - Victoria, MASON - Woodford Vic, BALLARD - South Wales, GOULDBY - Lowestoft
"Time present and time past are both perhaps present in time future..." T S Eliot

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Offline judb

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Re: Tas Archives - Register of Banns (1834) MaryAnn ROBINSON / Henry DOWSE or PALMER
« Reply #20 on: Friday 29 April 22 02:25 BST (UK) »
Below is a funeral notice for a Henry Palmer which fits the date given in previous reply - but it may not be the correct person.
The image of the death registration shown seems to me to show his age as 40 or 70 but the index entry says 70 which would be correct for this Henry Palmer.
https://www.libraries.tas.gov.au/how-to/Pages/Names-Index-content.aspx
Deaths, Palmer, Henry, 70
Date of death:
16 Dec 1877, registered Launceston
Record ID:
NAME_INDEXES:1209641
Resource:
RGD35/1/46 no 58

I wish I was clever enough to know how to attach the screen shot!!

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/37153126
FRIENDS are invited to attend the funeral of the late Mr. HENRY PALMER, which will leave his late residence, Quadrant, on TUESDAY (this day), at 4 o'clock.--HILLS,  Undertaker, Brisbane-street.

Judith
 
DYER - Wilts, London, Somerset, MIDLANE - Hants, Wilts, SONE - Hants, WRIGHT - London, Hants, SEAGER - Deptford, DWYER, FERGUSON - Victoria, MASON - Woodford Vic, BALLARD - South Wales, GOULDBY - Lowestoft
"Time present and time past are both perhaps present in time future..." T S Eliot

UK Census information Crown Copyrightt, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline donnaleeseaton

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All - sorry for such a long reply, but thanks everyone for the leads and feedback which I am methodically working through. So what I have managed to confirm the past week with absolute certainty, just a small part of the puzzle, is that Henry PALMER (Convict Earl St Vincent) is Henry “Palmer” DOWSE, the older brother of Thomas DOWSE of Sydney/Brisbane.

In 1824 younger brother Tom DOWSE, born London, tried at Old Bailey (14yo) for stealing clothes belonging to his brother Henry, his mother Catherine brought charges against him to “teach him a lesson”, sentenced to death / commuted to transport for life to Sydney. Spends 3 years on a prison hulk in England before being transported arriving Sydney in 1828. Checked Old Bailey, Newgate Prison and convict records and found he was an errand boy/milkman for his mother, after their father William (also a milkman) died 3 months earlier. The father had dobbed both sons (Tom and Henry) into the law in previous years for their thieving propensities and associating with a bad crowd in the hope to amend their ways. His mother Catherine comes out to Sydney sometime before 1837, possibly by way of Convict family government immigration scheme.

I then looked into Henry PALMER’s 1825 convict record to see if there were similarities with Henry DOWSE, age/birth etc. Age was spot on however birth place was listed as Chatham, Kent (not London) which threw me, and occupation Gent Servant/Groom, caught stealing a handkerchief in London. Checked Old Bailey, Newgate Prison and earlier convict records and found Henry was also a milkman which he must have taken up this task for his mother after his younger brother’s incarceration. Further investigations reveal their mother’s birthplace came to be Chatham, Kent. So upon being charged in 1825, not 12 months after his brother, and arrival at Newgate Prison, Henry Dowse assumes the Alias Surname of PALMER, making no mention or connection of his real surname Dowse, or his brother Tom who has recently gone through Newgate prison and is still on a prison hulk, no mother at Henry’s trial unlike with his young brother. Henry is transported quite quickly and arrives in Hobart 1826, 2 years ahead of his brother arriving in Sydney.

Fast forward to 1834 and the strange signature and surname on the banns/original marriage certificate which now makes sense, it may have been a slip up on Henry’s part, or to pay homage in some way to his original surname, although still maintaining his convict surname PALMER whilst in Tasmania. I need to fill in some gaps and further research Henry and his time with Captain Wilson, 1834 Ticket of Leave, 1837 daughter born as PALMER, 1838/40? Conditional Pardon, 1842 Free Pardon, 1843 Absolute Pardon, 1846 on Convict Muster….

From Apr 1846 to Aug 1848 (as per Trove newspaper articles) he turns up as Henry Palmer DOWSE, going between Sydney and Morton Bay, Brisbane with his brother. In his brother Tom’s diaries held as SLQ, on two occasions Tom mentions in 1847 “my brother and wife” sailed to/from Brisbane from Sydney. The brothers had a falling out in Aug 1848 in which Tom never wished to see Henry again.

And there the trail goes cold (for the moment). Did Henry and Mary Ann (nee Robinson) return to Hobart or move elsewhere or overseas, did Mary Ann go to Sydney/Brisbane with him or did she pass away in Hobart, did they leave their daughter Mary Ann Palmer in the care of her mother’s Robinson family (her brother William Robinson, sister Susanna Robinson the spinster, sister Eliza Robinson who m. Frederick Roff in 1852 with Henry Watson as witness -- Frederick Roff was also informant on Susanna Robinson's 1852 death certificate and on a William Leach death in 1853, much goings on at 33 Argyle St with Carpenters also and Edward Robinson) am yet to look into that, and have not tied in if or how the 11 Jan 1850 death of Mary Ann Palmer, carpenter's wife age 52 would fit in, but yet another link to a Henry Roff and Argyle St and Carpenters, now knowing Palmer surname to be an alias).

Oh – and I forgot to mention the icing on the cake, after my conclusions above, I happened to check my Ancestry DNA thru-lines and found both my mother and I had at least 3 DNA matches with two of Tom Dowse’s children’s descendant lines, and other descendants of our Tasmanian Palmer/Watson/Robinson line also had DNA matches with Tom Dowse’s children. It seems whilst historical records can somewhat be embellished to hide the truths, may only tell half the story, or offer you bread crumbs, DNA is hard to ignore.

I want to thank everyone for their contributions and advice the past weeks, in which I hope to follow up all the leads you have provided me as I have a few replies from you I have not responded as yet it but have not forgotten, Judith for making me re-evaluate that so carefully written but squiggly signature, Sue and TasTyger for having me re-evaluate the convict record I’d been sitting on for 8 years. Although I haven’t yet found their resting place, at least I can now fill in a few years of their life.
BANKS, CHIRNSIDE, DUKE, SEATON, WOIDE


Offline sparrett

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Hi
That seems a very good untangling of the probable story.

“my brother and wife” sailed to/from Brisbane from Sydney.

Is the name of the wife ever actually mentioned?

It is easy to use the word 'wife' for another relationship or indeed for a bigamous union ;D

Sue
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Offline donnaleeseaton

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Hi
That seems a very good untangling of the probable story.

“my brother and wife” sailed to/from Brisbane from Sydney.

Is the name of the wife ever actually mentioned?

It is easy to use the word 'wife' for another relationship or indeed for a bigamous union ;D

Sue

Thanks Sue, unfortunately the transcripts of this diary kindly published by another researcher http://tomdowse.blogspot.com/2003/02/thomas-dowse-diary-selected-entries.html?m=1 do not make mention of the name of Henry's wife. The diary entries "my brother and wife" could also be construed as being Tom's wife, however when I read years of his entries, he most often refers to his wife as Mrs Dowse, or Mrs D.

I have just found a promising shipping record of a Henry Palmer departing Hobart Town on 16 Feb 1846 bound for Sydney, on board Brigg “Louisa” https://stors.tas.gov.au/NI/592802, this would coincide with the Thomas Dowse Diary and first mention I could find of his brother, where Tom writes "Saturday 11th Apr 1846 - Steamer Thistle arrived, Mrs Dowse and Family returned in her. My brother Henry also came down by her", newspapers have them travelling from Sydney to Morton Bay, then Henry returns by himself to Sydney on 26 Apr, then nothing until he returns to Morton Bay a year later on 24 Apr 1847 "with his wife". Henry and wife then return back to Sydney in Aug 1847, Tom stating he sold sundry effects belongings of his brother, who intends going to Sydney. Henry is back and forth to Morton Bay for another year before the falling out of the brothers.
BANKS, CHIRNSIDE, DUKE, SEATON, WOIDE

Offline Neale1961

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Baptism: 2 march 1805 at St George the Martyr, Southwark, Surrey,
Henry Dowse born 12 Dec 1805
Parents: Wm and Catherine Dowse
 
Baptism: 8 Feb 1809 St. John's, Hackney, Middlesex
Thomas Dowse
Parents: William and Catherine Dowse

Burial: 14 May 1824 St Andrew, Holborn, City of London
William Dowse age 49 (born abt 1775)

Marriage: 1799 Christchurch Newgate, London
Catherine Barren to Wm Dowse

Burial: Sydney NSW 1846
Catherine Dowse V184627 31b

Baptism: 13 Apr 1774 Chatham, St Mary, Kent,
Catherine Barren
Parents: Richard and Ann

Alice Dowse: baptism 4 Dec 1811 Hackney (daughter of Catherine and William); burial 4 May 1815 Holborn
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland & New York)

Offline Neale1961

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Mrs Dowse goes to Moreton Bay from Sydney on schooner “Edward” Sept 1842
Looks as if she returns  in April 1844 on the steamer “sovereign”.

Dec 1847 on board “Tamar” Mrs Dowse goes to Moreton Bay
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland & New York)

Offline Neale1961

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Baptisms Chatham St Mary (Kent)
To parents Richard Barren and Ann
17 Nov 1765 – William Barren
7 May 1769 – Ann Barren
27 Mar 1771 – Richard Barren
20 Dec 1772 – James Barren
13 Apr 1774 – Catherine Barren
31 Mar 1776 – Edward Barren
8 Nov 1778 – Mary Barren
9 Dec 1781 – Elizabeth Barren
7 Oct 1787 – John Barren

Marriage Chatham St Mary (Kent)
17 Sept 1763 (by banns)
Richard Barren to Ann Pett. (Bride signs X)
Witnesses: Richard Pett and William Pett

Burials: Gillingham St Mary Magdalene Kent
6 Nov 1793 - Richard Barren age 53, abode Chatham (born abt 1740)
6 Jan 1808 – Ann Barren age 64, abode Chatham (born abt 1744)
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland & New York)