Herbert Williams 1890 Forden

[DCB]

Looking at the baptisms of the last three children, James was alive until 1885.

Children of James, Plasterer, and Mary Ann Williams of Pool Town
Thomas Charles: 5th April 1880
George Ernest: 6th July 1883
Herbert: 22nd February 1885, buried 12th November 11 months old

David

P.S. I missed Margaret Alice born in 1887 and baptised 1n 1888, so James alive until 1886-7.

WILLIAMS, MARGARET  ALICE mmn ROBERTS 
GRO Reference: 1887 M Quarter in FORDEN Volume 11B Page 175

[K8Case]

I'd be inclined to think that maybe he is the 1889 death then?
I wonder why he's not listed on Bertie's birth certificate though. Very strange. And also why Margaret wasn't baptised for so long after her birth.
Kate x

[DCB]

Sadly, I think the reason why James is not mentioned on the certificate is because he wasn't his father, although Bertie may have assumed that he was.

I noticed the address on Herbert's burial, which was Clifton Street, and found the following on the Index for the 1921 census.
Elizabeth Williams 1891, Fred (Freda?) Williams 1921, Catherine Jones, Emily Jones 1893 and Amy Jones 1904.

David

[K8Case]

Morning David,
Thanks for your reply. I have received James and Mary Anns wedding certificate and she doesn't give her father on it for some unkown reason.
I'm hoping there is a slim chance of James being the father now that i have finally managed to get somewhere with him.
Kate x

[K8Case]

Herbert (Bertie) was my grandads father, he died when he was 2 years old. Freda was my grandads older sister.
Kate x

[DCB]

Mary Ann's mother wasn't married, so she may not have known the name of her father. I looked for her birth registration in Welshpool but couldn't find it on the main sites. However, when I checked http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/birthsearch.php there is one in 1847 which doesn't seem to appear on the others, registered in Welshpool in 1847. Also brother, John, in 1850

I think the main sites may have them in Montgomery, possibly because of boundary changes in 1974:-

ROBERTS, MARY  ANN no mmn
GRO Reference: 1847  D Quarter in MONTGOMERY Volume 27  Page 100

ROBERTS, JOHN no mmn
GRO Reference: 1850 M Quarter in MONTGOMERY Volume 27 Page 102

The only way to find out about James is probably to buy the death certificate in 1886. However, it could be disappointing it it is the wrong one or, if correct, shows that he wasn't Bertie's father. Alternatively, the one in 1889.

David

[K8Case]

I have decided to order the 1889 death certificate. Its a bit of a gut feeling and I also read that for a father to be on a birth certificate he had to be present when the birth was registered so maybe if he died in 1889 that is why he isn't on there. At least I will hopefully have more answers.

Kate x

[K8Case]

Good morning David,

I hope you are well

The 1889 death certificate arrived this morning and I think it is the right one even though the age is right. It has him listed as a plasterer and also that he died at 33 Mount Street which was a lodging house. I cannot make out the cause of death other than exhaustion.

Kate x

[DCB]

Mount Street adjoins Raven Street, although it is strange that he was there. Perhaps he died at work.

Also strange that his age is so far out on the certificate and burial. I imagine that the grave is still there and may have the right details.

Does it mention the informant? If not a family member, they may have got it wrong.

You can see 33 on Street View, but it doesn't seem to be on the 1881-1891 census, which stops at 32.

Regards,
David