Johann Christian Friedrich Kalies, born Lubeck, Germany 1836

[Deirdre784]

Hi, i've hit a puzzle on a tree i'm researching for a friend and would love some help please.

I'm looking at John Kalies who married Ann Finnimore in Liverpool in Jul-Sep quarter of 1863. According to the licence, they were both single and above 21, John was a carpenter from Liverpool, and Ann from Swansea.

They went on to have 3 'known' children, Sophie Annie (1865), John Henry (1867) and Thomas Finnimore (1869), all births registered in West Derby. Sophia and John Henry's baptism records record John as a shipwright. Unfortunately John is not found on any of the censuses.

But i get several 'hints' (and he is included in several trees) that John is actually Johann Christian Friedrich Kalies. His mother was Sophia and one of John Henry's children is Frederick so at least these 2 names are possible links.

In 1871 Ann is a lodger in Toxteth Park, Liverpool, described as married and a housekeeper; her three children are with her. In 1881 Annie is a boarder in Liverpool, described as a ship's carpenter's wife, but her 2 sons are in the union school in Swansea. There are several poor law union records in Swansea for the children around this time, suggesting they have been abandoned, though in 1881, Sophia is a general servant in Cardiff with her mother's sister Mary and family.

I can't find Ann(ie) in 1891 but she died as a widow on 22 Feb 1898 aged 54, of Vernon Street, in Liverpool and is buried in Anfield cemetery. Probate was granted to Henry Stewart, a porter (no idea who he was!).

Any idea how i can try and confirm (or deny) that Johann and John are the same person. My friend has no idea that she has any German ancestry so i'd like to be able to clarify this.

Many thanks,

Deirdre

[Milliepede]

My friend has no idea that she has any German ancestry so i'd like to be able to clarify this.

Would DNA confirm that?  Not dabbled with it myself but others will know. 

Is there a father named for him on the 1863 marriage record? 

[Milliepede]

1891 hint is for Annie Healies 42 widow seamstress shirt

As the address is Vernon Street certainly possible?  Could certainly be a "K" instead of an "H"
have a look and see what you think.

[Milliepede]

Forget that post.

[Deirdre784]

Thanks for the 1891 Millipede; looks very likely (I was surprised how many records were recorded correctly as Kalies).

Only found the marriage licence which doesn't mention fathers, but it may be one to buy. Most of her tree appears fairly sensible so she wasn't looking to do her DNA but maybe the marriage certificate will help.

Since posting I have found a likely death for Johann's father in 1843, and a sibling birth and death, plus a record which someone else has attached to their tree indicating he's an orphan aged 10. So maybe the marriage certificate wouldn't say much anyway

[Deirdre784]

Thomas Finnimore Kalies, registered Oct-Dec 1869 in West Derby, no baptism found like the older two. Good link with his joining date.

It is looking pretty good isn't it?

[Deirdre784]

Forget that post.

oh why?

[Milliepede]

The birth in Lubeck 1836 has father

Nicolaus Jochim Kalies

mother

Sophia Margaretha Hamelau

so whether that father's name would appear on his marriage is a gamble if he was orphaned young

[Milliepede]

Sorry I took the crew post out as didn't want to go too far off on another tangent.