Gloucestershire Parish Registers - JAMES

[AmandaC9134]

Hi,

I have found my ancestors marriage - Elizabeth James, Marriage, 27 Aug 1769, Gloucester, St Mary De Crypt, Gloucestershire, England.  Parish as it appears Nortonin.  Spouse Daniel Coates

Based on that I try to search for Elizabeth James birth, by searching on 1748 +/- 10 years (my best guess at the "right" year range) then I get quite a few Birth entries that might be her, in Gloucestershire. 

In the 1700 all we have on a marriage entry on the parish records is the groom name and bride name, and the Parish.  We do not have the parent's names, so how on earth do I work out which of these births is "my" Elizabeth James?

For example, there are at least 11 results that come up for Elizabeth James birth :
2 Sep 1744 Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
29 Oct 1753 Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
25 Dec 1744 Gloucestershire,
25 Dec 1744 Gloucestershire,
Apr 1743 Gloucestershire,
5 Oct 1755 Gloucestershire, England
4 Mar 1751 Gloucestershire, England
1 Dec 1751-1752 Gloucestershire, England
8 Jul 1751 Gloucestershire, England
4 Mar 1751 Gloucestershire, England
16 Dec 1753 Gloucestershire, England

If look at where these births are WITHIN Gloucestershire (as those details on the the birth entries) then all seem to be locations in Gloucestershire county rather than Gloucester itself.  It is not obvious which are closer to the marriage location of Gloucester, St Mary De Crypt. 

I am sorry if this is a stupid question but would much appreciate some pointers in how to work this out. 

Huge thanks in advance

[Davedrave]

This is precisely the problem with parish records in the absence of any other records to qualify them. It is also dangerous to assume that a baptism in a place close to where someone later married is necessarily going to be the right baptism. Many of the very extensive trees that you can find online are not based on any solid evidence. If you have someone’s age at death it can help to find what looks like a “best fit” baptism, but when age at death is omitted from a burial record things are even more problematic.

Unfortunately all of the baptisms you list took place too early for any of the individuals to have lived until the 1851 Census, which is the first one which is useful for pointing to someone’s birthplace (though even this information is sometimes incorrect.) Then there is the issue that there can often be cousins of similar ages given the same Christian names living in the same or nearby villages, so who is your ancestor then?

Wills can help but most ordinary people didn’t leave them (and I have wills where the testator unhelpfully refers to “my children” without naming them). I have a lot of instances where I have the same problem as you and all I can say in many cases is that it is likely that an individual was related somehow to people in a certain area. Sometimes an unusual forename might help, but if someone has a common surname and forename, things are even worse. I haven’t any Smiths in my line fortunately!

[AmandaC9134]

Hi DaveDave,

Sadly I don't have any more info on Elizabeth James birth or death.  Only her marriage. 

In this case I have started from a baptism of the son Richard Coates in 1774 in St. Mary-de-Lode's, Gloucester, where helpfully the parish baptism record said his parents names were Daniel Coates and Betty Coates.  That enabled me to find an Elizabeth (Betty) James marrying Daniel Coates on 27 Aug 1769, Gloucester, St Mary De Crypt, Gloucestershire, England.   Fortunately the locations are close for the baptism and marriage. 

However now I am stumped trying to find the birth of Elizabeth James.  Such a common name it seems.  I do realise that she may not have been local to Gloucester before marriage

Do you think it would help if I look for the deaths of these parents first? 

Thank you

[DavidG02]

One of the things I keep forgetting is that people died early and suddenly at times - does the certificate say whether widow or spinster?

As noted any qualifying info given is always a good guide

[amondg]

What did they name the children ?, a common pattern was the first son for the husband's father first daughter for the mothers' mother, second daughter for husband's mother etc.

[Davedrave]

Hi DaveDave,

Sadly I don't have any more info on Elizabeth James birth or death.  Only her marriage. 

In this case I have started from a baptism of the son Richard Coates in 1774 in St. Mary-de-Lode's, Gloucester, where helpfully the parish baptism record said his parents names were Daniel Coates and Betty Coates.  That enabled me to find an Elizabeth (Betty) James marrying Daniel Coates on 27 Aug 1769, Gloucester, St Mary De Crypt, Gloucestershire, England.   Fortunately the locations are close for the baptism and marriage. 

However now I am stumped trying to find the birth of Elizabeth James.  Such a common name it seems.  I do realise that she may not have been local to Gloucester before marriage

Do you think it would help if I look for the deaths of these parents first? 

Thank you

I’m afraid that I don’t really know what to suggest for the best approach. I have an instance where I’m 99% sure of a woman’s marriage, and I have the woman’s subsequent burial. Working back from that gives a theoretical year of birth. Within a couple of years of that time are two possible baptisms which took place at two different churches in the smallish town of her marriage and burial, with both of which churches the known family was later associated. So I don’t feel able to choose between them, and her line ends there for me, since there are no other records which might help. It is also possible, though unlikely, that the woman whose baptism I’m seeking was born and baptised elsewhere entirely.

I have another case where a boy’s parents are known only from the fortunate (for me!) fact that they were removed from a parish (under the poor laws) when he was three weeks old, and so his father’s trade is known and ties in with a later apprenticeship document for the lad. (There is no surviving baptism for the boy and very likely he simply wasn’t baptised.)

The great majority of baptism records I’ve seen do not include a date of birth, and as DavidG02 points out, mortality was high at this time too. Remarriage at this time of a widow or widower (or both) was very common, not least for hard economic reasons.

Just to add to the brew, I know of one certain case where a marriage entry in a parish register simply gives the wrong name for the bride. Fortunately the marriage was by licence and that record in unequivocal. Had that record not survived, the marriage of these ancestors would have been totally lost. (In this case the writer of the register had recorded the name of the bride as exactly the same as that of the bride on the line above. And here comes another source of error: many registers are not what was written on the day, but stuff copied much later, often from scraps of notes.)

It is also worth bearing in mind that parish records are far from complete, so what may seem to be the only likely candidate may not be. The record of the person you are seeking may have been lost or they may never have been baptised at all.

Sorry not to be more helpful, but I can see from comments on RootsChat and from looking at numerous online trees that hitting the buffers with a line sometime in the C18th is pretty normal.
Good luck anyway, and hopefully someone may have some more helpful suggestions.

Dave 

[amondg]

They were actually married 16 October 1769, the banns read on 24 September,  8 &15 October 1769 St Mary De Crypt

Image - ancestry

Witness Amelia Quarington and William Webley

 (Elizabeth was of St Michael)

another entry has banns read 27 September, 3 and 10 October 1769

[maddys52]

Witnesses to the marriage can be a help in trying to establish the right family. I would look at those witnesses that amondg has kindly given you and see if there is any family relationship.

I would also suggest looking for a burial which may give the age at death, so you can work backwards to a possible year for a baptism (though ages, like spelling, were pretty fluid. 

Modified to add:
Sometimes you can be lucky and find a marriage notice in newspapers which may include a father's name. (I have had a quick look for Daniel COATES and Elizabeth JAMES in 1769, but no such luck unfortunately.

[magslote]

gloustershire marriages, ebrington elizabeth james, 7.10.1768==thomas green.
gloustershire marriages, elizabeth james, 3.12.1769===harry okell.
margaret.