Author Topic: A WW1 Private described "General Labourer" by wife - Is that... a thing?  (Read 1125 times)

Offline jim1

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Re: A WW1 Private described "General Labourer" by wife - Is that... a thing?
« Reply #18 on: Monday 14 August 23 12:31 BST (UK) »
Found!
126 Bde. were at the Battle of  Broodseinde (3rd. Battle of Ypres)
which took place on the 4th. Oct. 1917.
You can find them in the 48th. Div. HQ. war diary p.647 on Ancestry.
A snippet
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline Annbee

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Re: A WW1 Private described "General Labourer" by wife - Is that... a thing?
« Reply #19 on: Monday 14 August 23 13:35 BST (UK) »
Jim and Andy,

You are champions! So much information and wonderfully detailed explanation which is really, truly helpful.

Andy, I hadn't seen that information re. Alec Beach's need for identification, I must have missed seeing those links on the CWG site when I researched Alec 2 years ago. Alec's father had experienced a lot of death in his childhood, including his parents dying when he was a child. It's not surprising that the family didn't opt for an epitaph on his gravestone: it would have been beyond words for his father especially. (But I digress)

I will sit down at the computer tomorrow and thoroughly go through both your thoughtful posts.

Meanwhile, I am attaching an image which 2 years ago I guesstimated - and I mean a pure guess, based solely on his death date - that he may have died at Broodseinde and I put the image in his folder... just in case he really was there.

I recently read that taking unauthorised photos during WW1 was prohibited (just as well social media didn't exist then); which resulted in fewer images of course. So, although it often naturally features Australian troops, it doesn't always and for anyone interested in tracing location images this is a link to the Australian War Memorial photo archive. Could be worth a look:

https://www.awm.gov.au/digital-collection/photos
Warwickshire: BEACH/BACHE, COX Gloucestershire: HAIL, VOYCE, TURNER, WINCHCOMBE, PREEN, Worcestershire: WEBB, CHARE, TYLER, Fife: FOWLER, JOHNSTONE, MELVILLE, Lanarkshire/Dunbartonshire: GRAHAM, CHALMERS, LANG, BISHOP, Sweden/Hamburg/London/Birmingham: HOKANSON

Offline Andy J2022

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Re: A WW1 Private described "General Labourer" by wife - Is that... a thing?
« Reply #20 on: Monday 14 August 23 16:24 BST (UK) »
I hadn't seen that information re. Alec Beach's need for identification, I must have missed seeing those links on the CWG site when I researched Alec 2 years ago.
This is the card I was referring to. All the other CWGC documents can be found at: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/451977/a-beach/

Offline jim1

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Re: A WW1 Private described "General Labourer" by wife - Is that... a thing?
« Reply #21 on: Monday 14 August 23 18:16 BST (UK) »
Where he was buried prior to re-interment.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/


Offline Annbee

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Re: A WW1 Private described "General Labourer" by wife - Is that... a thing?
« Reply #22 on: Thursday 17 August 23 10:41 BST (UK) »
Quote
The farm is at the northernmost end of where they were.
He could have been anywhere along the yellow line.

I've been doing a lot of homework Jim and Andy, thanks to your great leads. I've read the 1916 War Diary of 2/8th Warwickshire and the 1917 diary associated with the Honourable Artillery Corps. There's been much map reading and artillery reading, and of trench warfare and creeping barrages (especially first person accounts in contrast with Press Association news) and you-name-it.

I found that Thomas Richard Beach, Regt. No. 3730, 2/8th Warwickshire, died on his first ever Trench Raid close to midnight on the 26th June 1916. It was only his and his comrades' 3rd night in a trench. He was part of 'D' Coy, under the command of Second Lt. Charles Victor While and they had been ordered to move to Hun Street Trench on the southern outskirts of Neuve Chapelle to perform their raid.

(From what I've read, this type of tactic sounds frightening and extremely dangerous)

In the interests of anyone looking for the deaths of my Prvt. Thomas Richard Beach, Second Lt. Charles Victor While and Lt. Edward Cedric Hooton; and the missing Capt. G.C.Field (who ended up a prisoner), this is what happened:

"Raid on enemy trenches S. 5. b. 51. Raining 5pm.-11pm.

11.40.pm. Artillery bombardment enemy's front line trenches 12 am. Artillery lifted to enemy's support trenches.

1.0 am. Artillery lowered to enemy's frontline trenches. 1.15 am. artillery cease fire 11.40pm.

11.40.pm. 'D' Company advanced on enemy's trenches Returned 12.50am.

Casualties. Killed. Offrs 1 (2Lt. WHILE). O.R. 2: Wounded Offrs. nil. O.R. 20 (includes 1 m-duty) Missing Offrs  2 (Capt FIELD, LT. HOOTON). O.R. 15"


I notice they didn't capture anyone (it eventuated some of the missing got captured), there was no report of a 'successful' mission, no taking of prisoners. Sure, often the goal of this tactic was to intimidate the enemy or gain new information (via capturing and identifying the enemy etc) - what an expensive waste of life!

Here's the map of where this raid took place. It's about 4 kms south of Bird Cage trenches, Jim. As you said, Thomas could have been anywhere along that line. I've roughly coloured the enemy trench area.
 
Warwickshire: BEACH/BACHE, COX Gloucestershire: HAIL, VOYCE, TURNER, WINCHCOMBE, PREEN, Worcestershire: WEBB, CHARE, TYLER, Fife: FOWLER, JOHNSTONE, MELVILLE, Lanarkshire/Dunbartonshire: GRAHAM, CHALMERS, LANG, BISHOP, Sweden/Hamburg/London/Birmingham: HOKANSON

Offline Annbee

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Re: A WW1 Private described "General Labourer" by wife - Is that... a thing?
« Reply #23 on: Thursday 17 August 23 12:06 BST (UK) »
And here's a closer view of Hun St Trench line, from a National Library Scotland Map. Also, the numbers "S.5" are at that spot - mentioned at the beginning of the diary entry.
Warwickshire: BEACH/BACHE, COX Gloucestershire: HAIL, VOYCE, TURNER, WINCHCOMBE, PREEN, Worcestershire: WEBB, CHARE, TYLER, Fife: FOWLER, JOHNSTONE, MELVILLE, Lanarkshire/Dunbartonshire: GRAHAM, CHALMERS, LANG, BISHOP, Sweden/Hamburg/London/Birmingham: HOKANSON

Offline jim1

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Re: A WW1 Private described "General Labourer" by wife - Is that... a thing?
« Reply #24 on: Thursday 17 August 23 12:45 BST (UK) »
Oh dear, I seem to owe you an apology.
I had his DOD wrong & looked at the wrong page in the diary. (senior moment)
Same trench system but too far North.
This time I definitely have it right.
The trench at S.5.b.5.1. is indicated in yellow (Sandy Trench) & the trenches they
were occupying circled in red.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline Annbee

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Re: A WW1 Private described "General Labourer" by wife - Is that... a thing?
« Reply #25 on: Thursday 17 August 23 13:01 BST (UK) »
Quote
owe you an apology.

No, you don't, I'd still be looking for trenches in St Tropez if you hadn't honed in this close!

Can I ask if you know what those lines of X marks in enemy territory, on the bigger map (with 'raid here') are?

I knew they'd used Hun Street as an entry trench to another from where they'd launched the raid so thanks for that. But they did a raid almost into a wood? Who knew what the wood was hiding?!
Warwickshire: BEACH/BACHE, COX Gloucestershire: HAIL, VOYCE, TURNER, WINCHCOMBE, PREEN, Worcestershire: WEBB, CHARE, TYLER, Fife: FOWLER, JOHNSTONE, MELVILLE, Lanarkshire/Dunbartonshire: GRAHAM, CHALMERS, LANG, BISHOP, Sweden/Hamburg/London/Birmingham: HOKANSON

Offline jim1

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Re: A WW1 Private described "General Labourer" by wife - Is that... a thing?
« Reply #26 on: Thursday 17 August 23 13:44 BST (UK) »
 
Quote
what those lines of X marks in enemy territory,
barbed wire entanglements.
The raid wasn't from Hun St. & the wood you mention wouldn't have
resembled one just being a lot of blown up tree stumps.
I've marked in yellow where the raid took place.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/