Can't find people on Marriage Certificate

[josey]

Great stuff.

I found Faith Palmer on the IGI [film C050701] baptised 6 Nov 1808 daughter of William Palmer & Mary. Siblings Mary Ann bap 3 Jun 1793, Frances bap 21 Oct 1795, William bap 1 Jun 1802, Mary bap 18 Mar 1805 [all Coldridge].

Can't find a William - Mary marriage for about 1792.

I would be reasonably sure that this John is yours.  Your'e getting there....

Hope we continue to hear how you are progressing!

Josey

[josey]

If by chance you manage to find out anything by tomorrow eve [!!!] I happen to be going to the Public Records Office in Kew next Wednesday [but am leaving home in Yorkshire on Sunday] to research the military record of my g g grandfather who was a sergeant in the 87th Regiment Royal Irish Fusiliers 1840s - 1860s.

I would be happy to look up any record you can get the reference to, but don't think I would have time to do a lot of additional research.  Have you looked yet at the National Archive website www.nationalarchives.gov.uk. Lots of help with researching the military.

PM me if you wish.

Josey

[Yashca]

That is a fantastic offer josey, however, I am not completely sure what information you need. As you mentioned before, if John Harding died in service, then there will be no discharge papers for him. However, William Morris survived and came back to England, so there is a possibility that his discharge papers exist.

William Morris was back in England by the 1881 census, married and with children to Letitia. They are living in 'barracks' Sheffield. William's occupation is given as 'Color Sergeant 2/19th Regiment. By 1891 he is living in Hunslet, Leeds, and his occupation is now 'Store Keeper'. Presumably, therefore, he was discharged between 1881 and 1891.

According to the Nation Archives website you recommended, it says

'Soldiers discharged 1873-1882
Look in the 1873-1882 section of the WO 97 class list (WO 97/1722 to WO 97/2171 ), under the appropriate branch of the army (Cavalry, Household Cavalry, Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers, Foot Guards, Infantry, Army Service Corps, Army Hospital Corps, Military Staff Corps, Rifle Brigade, Colonial Regiments (e.g. Bengal, Cape, China, Ceylon, Canada, Malta and West Indies), and miscellaneous units). Some discharge papers have been misfiled, and are now in alphabetical order in WO 97/6355 to WO 97/6383 . '

That sounds quite complicated, as I don't know what branch of the Army he was in, how do I find out what branch of the Army he was in? Are all of the Green Howards in the same branch of the Army?

After 1882 it seems a bit simpler:

'Soldiers discharged 1882-1900
For this period all discharge papers were filed alphabetically, for the whole army (WO 97/2172 to WO 97/4231 ). Some discharge papers may have been misfiled, and are now in a second alphabetic sequence in WO 97/6355 to WO 97/6383 . These documents are seen in the original, and are ordered on computer. '

Which seems to indicate that you could search by name for William Morris.

I really though have no idea how one goes about researching at Kew, this is completely new to me. If you could tell me the kind of things you need to know, I'll do my best to find them out. I'm continuing my research all the time.

[Yashca]

Right, according to the National Archives site, if discharge papers don't exist, as they won't for John Harding, then the 'basic framework of a soldier's career can normally be established through use of the Muster Rolls and Pay Lists'

There are several different pay lists and muster rolls, but I think the most likely one is the 'General Series' which contains monthly or quarterly musters from 1732 to 1878, and the catalogue reference for this document is WO 12.

I hope this is the right kind of information, and thank you once again for your kind offer.

[josey]

Looking at the reference about WO 97/2172 - 4231 for dicharges 1883 - 1900; as this is alphabetical you can 'search the catalogue' using WO 97 for the reference. Then by trial & error putting in different numbers after the forward slash you can find WO 97/3506 & 3507 have the Morris surnames. These would definitely be the first 2 to look in.  If I get time I will certainly look at these.

As you said, there are also the pay lists WO 12. Again by trial & error [although I knew where the 87th regiment's were so had a bit of a start] you can find the 19th regiment's eg WO 12/3640 for the 19th 1st batt 1863 - 64, WO 12/3660 for the 2nd batt same year. You would need to look at each year [and each year had 4 quarterly returns] but the paylists can show when John was in the regiment. But they will only tell you that - there are no details about the man himself, just that he got paid & if he was of good conduct so he was due pay for every day of the quarter.

There are research leaflets available on the Natinal Archives site - perhaps that is where you got the info about WO 97.

However, if John Harding is your direct ancestor I am not sure what William's military history can tell you. I think perhaps you need to find out for sure that he died, and when, [possibly the fibis site?]. He is not on the findmypast army deaths [tried to attach a screenshot but couldn't for some reason].  

There are other WO series [25 description books, 17 station returns, 118 pensions records] but I know less about these. Some I know have been microfilmed by the LDS so perhaps a trawl through www.familysearch.org might help. You can order LDS films to see cheaply at a local Church of Latter Day Saints [I have never done this but I hear they are very helpful].

Josey

[Yashca]

I see your point about William Morris, his military history wouldn't do me much good.

As for John Harding, I wonder if he could be found in a description book? These 'give a description of each soldier, his age, place of birth, trade and service' which would be very helpful in determining if we have found the right John on the census. However, most of these date to the first half of the 1800's, so there is only a chance that John may be in one for the second half. Nevertheless, the reference for these is WO 25/266-688.

I understand that you are going to Kew to undertake your own research, and that finding anything to do with me will rely on having the time and being lucky. But anyway, thank you.

[Yashca]

Sorry, I just found this:

'5. Extra information
From 1868 to 1883 musters may contain lists of Men becoming non-effective, found at the end of each quarter (or the beginning for regiments stationed in India) which give a man's birthplace, along with his trade and date of death or discharge. However, these quarterly lists are not always present. From about 1868 musters may also include Marriage Rolls giving details of children and wives occupying married quarters. Records of some soldiers' children may also be found among the papers of the Duke of York's School and the Royal Hibernian School in WO 143 , from 1801.'

The emphasis is mine, doesn't this seem quite applicable for John Harding?

[josey]

It certainly does seem to be applicable. Looks as though the 1869 - 1871 pay lists for the 19th would be the most useful. I've  had a look and that is WO 12/3648 for the 1st batt, 12/3668 for the 2nd. I expect John was in the 2nd when he became [non-effective' - a bit of an impersonal wasy to put it eh?] as he had been in 1869 at his marriage.

I have has a trawl through WO 25, and annoyingly it seems to jump from 18th foot to 20th foot missing out the 19th [and just as annoyingly for me from 86th to 88th missing out my vital 87th]. However when I am there if I get time I will peruse a printed copy of the detailed lists of each WO series, much quicker than entering each number individually. 

Josey

[josey]

Letitia remarries in 1872, so not very long after the birth of her & John's son.  That cuts down the number of WO 12 paylists to be looked at to 2 years, really.

Have you ever tried looking for a will?