Where is Cae Clogyn

[countrylover]

Hi.

Brief details as follows -

The farm Cae Clogyn or Cae Clogwyn was the scene of a "crime of passion" murder in 1901.  The farm was very prestigous in its day and had its own farm bailiff.  The lady of the house was a great beauty and her Bailiff was madly in love with her.   Unfortunately for him her affections lay elsewhere and on the day she was due to leave
and move to her beau she was confronted by him in the kitchen.  The date was 3rd. July 1901.   Determined that if he could not have her then no other man would - he shot her.  He then turned the gun on himself - killing himself outright.  His victim however lay with severe head injuries.  She was taken to Wrexham Infirmary (imagine the journey - horse-power!) where she died 2 days later.  This crime of passion shocked the Nation and was reported in the London Gazette.   

The farmhouse stood empty and fell into ruins.  The substantial farm buildings stood and were used by local farmers for housing livestock up until the land was quarried in the 1960`s for sand and gravel.
All that was left of Cae Clogwyn was scooped away.   Although this area was known as "the old Quarry" it was only in fact quarried from the 60`s to the 80`s.   The path that runs from the Cymau end to the now Nature Reserve runs along the line that was the original old drive to the farm.

[wilcoxon]

I`m curious,  what was the lady`s name.
In 1901 there are only two people at Cae Clogyn.
RG13; Piece: 3379; Folio: 137; Page: 4.

Joe Guest  In charge of building 34 Single,   servant b Hope parish
William Puppel   Griffiths 14 Single servant b Caergwrle.
 
 

 

[countrylover]

Hi
Joseph Guest was the Bailiff.  The lady was a Sydney Jones.

[wilcoxon]

This is an interesting tale, and very very sad, it seems that Joe and Sydney  may have known each other for quite a while. They lived in the same area.

As poor Sydney was taken to Wrexham then her death would be registered there. Joe was in Hope, and would have been registered Chester.
Deaths Sep 1901  .
Guest  Joe  34  Chester  8a 273
Jones  Sidney  40  Wrexham  11b 165 

I wonder if this is the lady, there are not many Sydney`s around.
1901
RG13; Piece: 3379; Folio: 178; Page: 17
Bryn Golau, Cymmau.
Sydney Jones F  Single 38 head. farmer,  own account b Liverpool
Maggie F Jones dau Single 18 dressmaker own acc at home b Hope.

 I think this confirms  it
1891 RG12; Piece: 2870; Folio 103; Page 15;
Cae Clogyn Farm .
Sarah Jones 68 head Single, b Hope
Sydney Jones 28 neice  Single ,general dom b Liverpool.
Margaret Florence Jones 8 neice b Hope
Joseph Guest 24 Single, servant b Hope
Thomas Edwd Whitley 14 Single, servant b Hope
Edwin Jones 40 Single, servant b Hope

Who was Maggie`s Daddy.
1881 RG11; Piece: 3566; Folio: 82; Page: 15
Cae Clogyn farm
William Jones 92 Head Widower Farmer of 52 acres b Hope
Sarah Jones 60 dau unm housekeeper b Hope
William Jones 50 son Unm labourer b Hope
Sydney Jones 21 Gr Dau, Unm dairy maid b Hope
Jesse Cox 16  male  farm servant b Buckely.

1881 RG11; Piece: 3566; Folio: 50; Page: 41;
Caeau , Caergwrle
Joseph Guest 58 head labourere b Hope
Elizabeth Guest 32 wife b Llanarmon Denbs
Joe Guest 14 son b Hope
Rachel Guest 8 dau b Hope

1871  RG10; Piece: 3737; Folio: 50; Page: 12;
Cae Clogyn
William Jones 82 Head farmer b Hope
Margaret Jones 78 wife b "
Sarah Jones 50 dau Un b "
William Jones 40 son unm farmer b "
Robert Rowland 17 unm servany b Liverpool
Sidney Jones 11 gr dau b Liverpool.
 
1871 RG10; Piece: 3737; Folio: 21; Page: 38
Brickfield Caergwrle
Joseph Guest 37 widower farm lab b Hope
Mary Guest 14 dau b "
Catherine Guest 8 dau b "
Ellen Guest 6 dau b "
Joseph Guest 4 son b "

Just a "maybe "
1861 RG9; Piece: 2670; Folio: 10; Page: 14
10 Pall Mall Ct, St Pauls, Liverpool
Hy Jones 29 porter b Wales
Ann Jones 25 wife  b Wales
Hugh Jones 3 son B Liverpool
Sidney A Jones 2 dau b "
Wm Hy Jones 4 Mo son b "


 
 
 

 
 
 
 

 

[countrylover]

Fascinating - her daughter was Margaret Florence!!

[wilcoxon]

I`ve spotted that Joseph Guest snr was a widower in 1871, but by 1881 he has a nice young wife about 26 years younger than him.

1861 RG9; Piece: 4277; Folio: 132; Page: 5
Cae Estyn Caergwrle
Joseph Guest 34 ag lab b Hope
Ann Guest 27 wife b County Down, Bourne , Ireland
Mary Guest 4 dau b Hope
Jane Guest 2 dau b "

This must be Ann, and it seems she may have died as the result of giving birth to little Joe, how sad.
 
Deaths Mar 1867   
Guest,   Ann  33  Wrexham  11b 229

Births Mar 1867   
Guest  Joseph     Wrexham  11b 297

I`m guessing this is the first  marriage.
North Wales Marriage 1854  Free BMD Dec qtr. 1854
GUEST Joseph / MICKMAIN Ann . Hope, St Cynfarch

And this is the second.
North Wales Marriage1871. Free BMD  Dec qtr, 1854
GUEST Joseph / JONES Elizabeth.  Hope, St Cynfarch

Back to Cae Clogyn
1861 RG9; Piece: 4278; Folio: 22; Page: 16
Caeclogwyn
William Jones 70 head farmer b Hope
Margaret Jones 68 wife b Hope
Sarah Jones 37 unm dau b "
Ithel Jones 35 SON unm b "
William Jones 30 son unm b "
William Jones 10 grandson b Brymbo
Elizabeth Evans 14 house servant b Hope
 
1851 HO107; Piece: 2502; Folio: 83; Page: 19
Cae Clogyn
William Jones 55 farmer b Hope
Margrett Jones 54 wife b "
Ithell Jones 28 son unm, mason b "
George Jones 26 son unm, mason b "
Sarah Jones 30 dau , unm b "
Thomas Jones 23 son unm masonb "
Wm Jones 21 son unm mason b "
George Jones 10 nephew b "

That`s it , 1841 for this area is missing.
Joseph Guest and Ann Mickmain are proving hard to find in 1851.
I expect the marriage entries in Hope PRs will shed some light on their fathers.
The Tithe maps will tell us who the land owner and occupants of Cae Clogyn will be when they were drawn up.
 
 

 

[countrylover]

Hopefully I might have some more info. Monday

[wilcoxon]

Just a "maybe "
1861 RG9; Piece: 2670; Folio: 10; Page: 14
10 Pall Mall Ct, St Pauls, Liverpool
Hy Jones 29 porter b Wales
Ann Jones 25 wife  b Wales
Hugh Jones 3 son B Liverpool
Sidney A Jones 2 dau b "
Wm Hy Jones 4 Mo son b "

I`m not really sure now about this Sydney, there is no Henry with the rest of the Jones family in 1851, and as all the other sons are masons, this just doesn`t seem to be right. 

[countrylover]

Mystery solved.   Visited Heritage Centre, Bersham, today, to check their Archives (had been to Hawarden yesterday - but on wrong track!!).  Staff very helpful.  The  story of this tragedy is reported in FULL in the North Wales Guardian dated July 5th. 1901.   It really was a sad case.  I had actually originally, a few years ago,  been shown an article in the 1901 London Gazette (complete with artist`s impression). The report in the North Wales Guardian gives much more information on this tragic event.

For many years after - many parents - used to "threaten" their off-spring with being "left at Cae Clogwyn".