Lady Ann of Clontarf?

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Hi Roger:

Well, your lack of optimism is understandable, considering how dry you have wrung the cloth.  But give yourself credit for a job well done.

Good news/bad news regarding the Charles J. Burke often listed at the same address as James Francis Burke in Cincinnati.  I've identified him:  John Charles.  With a birth year of 1862, it's not a brother of JF (born 1829).  95% certain it is JF's son.

What "nailed it" was doing a search at Cinci's birth and death records:  Certain that he died in 1893, I did a search for Burke that year, no first name, and came up with the attached, with the same address as J. F. 

My difficulty in tracking him down was due to the name being different in that database than as usually shown in the WCD.  Besides no "E" ending the surname, rather than the WCD's "Charles J." the death record shows "John Charles".  I followed up and this new name version is supported by his wife Alice's death certificate, and his Find A Grave listing (though that transcribes it as "John B. Burke":  no photo of grave marker).

Frustrating that John Charles' birth year wasn't earlier in JF's life, during that "invisible" first 5 years of marriage.

Regards,

Joe

 

[despair]

It's been a while,but I haven't given up.
There may be some merit in the following line of enquiry:-
I have found a record for the marriage in 1809 for John Southerland(sic),Galway Militia, to "Miss Daly of Tokery Lodge".The record is in  Irish Marriages 1771-1812,Walkers Hibernian Magazine available at www.archive.org.
Miss Daly,is ,I believe Catherine(or Katherine) Daly from Tokay Lodge,which was in the Marino/Fairview area of Dublin.Perhaps,therefore,the records for the children born at Ballinasloe in the 1820s have Catherine Sutherland nee Daly as their mother.

Further,at www.thepeerage.com,her lineage is given as follows:-

Katherine Daly  daughter of Denis Daly,Lieutenant Galway Militia (wife unknown?)

Denis Daly  son of Michael Daly(1744-1808)(residencies Tokay Lodge,County Dublin-Mount Pleasant,Galway and Loughrea,Galway )and Lady Joanna Gore

Michael Daly  son of Denis Daly and Lady Anne de Burgh(or Burke)

Lady Anne de Burgh   daughter of Michael Bourke(or Burke),10th Earl of Clanricarde

My poor brain can't work out if Lady Anne de Burgh is of the right generation to qualify as a candidate,nor have I managed to find dates for her or a portrait so far.

Regards
Roger

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Hi Roger:

Great to hear from you.  Thanks again for your dogged determinism.

It's really late and I'm REALLY tired, so take the following with all that in mind:

Looking over your information, Lady Anne de Burgh seems promising, especially with Miss Katherine Daly of Tokay Lodge being in the Marino area.   Married in 1809, Katherine, if she was 18 at the time, would be 37 in 1828, Jessie Sutherland's birth year (19 years after the marriage): a bit old but still of childbearing age.  But I must confess I am unclear as to your 1820's Ballinasloe reference.  Might it be possible to find those birth records?

All I am sure about is that Jessie Sutherland was born Sept. 3 1828 in Scotland, and that she reports at least once that her parents John and ?? were born in Scotland.

My family's oral history says that "Lady Anne" is supposed to have been Jessie Sutherland's great grandmother.  My work has shown "Lady Anne's" birth year to be from 1752 to 1783.

So let's work things out for the Lady Anne de Burgh and lineage you cite:

Lady Anne de Burgh marries Denis Daly, who beget:

Michael Daly, b. 1744, marries Lady Joanna Gore, who beget:

Denis Daly, later Lt. Galway Militia, marries unknown wife, who beget:

Katherine Daly of Tokery Lodge, who marries John Southerland, Galway Militia, in 1809, and beget (perhaps):

Jessie Sophia Sutherland, born Scotland 1828, who marries James Francis Burke in 1850

Wellllll…..  looking backwards from this point, it works out that Lady Anne de Burgh would be Jessie's great great grandmother. 

Problems: 
1 generation different than oral history.
Katherine Daly not born in Scotland

Can't discount this connection based on a few discrepancies and my lack of sleep.  Would love to hear more of what you dig up.

Regards,

Joe 





 

[despair]

I'm still following the John Sutherland of the Galway Militia in this latest data.I can't find any way that he has a daughter born on the specified date in Scotland.so perhaps it's time to look for another candidate.You did say in a PM that you were looking at an alternative.Can you provide details?

Regards
Roger

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Roger:

The alternative is actually someone I'm sure I've mentioned before:  the "Messenger at Arms" John Sutherland of Forfar/Forfarshire from the 1841 Census, detailed in the attached PDF.  He has a daughter Jessie, 13 years old, so born 1828, which is the correct year.

Any thoughts?

Joe

[despair]

Before I look at the alternative,I've found a couple of possible "coincidences" associated with the Galway militia man.
The father of Lady Anne de Burgh is Michael Burke(10th Earl of Clanricarde,1686-1726),in turn the son of the 9th Earl,who "settled Clondagoff " on his son John(Michael's brother) in 1718,the year of John's death.I can't find the occupants of Clondagoff from this point to the early 1800s,but it may have stayed in the Burke/de Burgh family.

As far as I can tell the two earliest children from the marriage of John So(u)therland and Catherine Daly are Anne-Marie(1809) and Eleanor(1812).Not unlike Mary Helen,the daughter of James and Jessie?

However,the main problem remains that Jesse born to John and Catherine is baptised in Ireland in late 1824 and a Jane in May 1829.I'm not sure what happened to either of tghem as I can't find marriage or death records.

Regards
Roger

[MonicaL]

Hi Joe and Roger

Great to see the work you are still working through here Roger. I have to admit I sat up straight when I looked at what you had posted in the last day or so. There are gaps though and wonder how we could bridge that info so that it be included/excluded.

Regarding the messenger at Arms, John Sutheland, there was this post from a couple of years ago:

I have looked already at this family in Forfar, with father John, messenger at arms. The family show as born outside of the county of Angus (Forfar) on their 1841 census entry.

I think wife may be Margaret Stewart. These are the children's births/christenings showing on IGI and SP:

John 1812 in Alyth Perth
Alexander 1813 in Alyth Perth
William 1815 in Alyth Perth - died that year
Ann 1816 in Alyth Perth (likely died young)
Ann 1819 in Forfar Angus
Elizabeth 1820 in Forfar Angus
Margaret 1823 in Forfar Angus

Jessie 1828 and Walter 1830 don't show on the Old Parish Register index on either SP or IGI. Nor is there a marriage showing between 1800-1815 for a couple with these names.

Possible entries in 1851 that I also found:

Walter Sutherland, 21, shoemaker, b. Forfar lodging with a Mollison family in Inverkeilor, Angus, and
Jessie Sutherland, 22, domestic servant b. Forfar working at the Matthew household in Perth, Perthshire

There is no mention in the OPRs births/christenings for a Jessie Sophia Sutherland. There is only one entry for a Sophia (no first name), daughter of John and mother Sophia in the right year range. The family were from Aberdeenshire, and father an agricultural labourer.

I have also looked at possible entries for Janet/Jean/Jane which are all variants with Jessie (see www.whatsinaname.net/) and nothing really jumping out unfortunately.

I am really stuck on what to advice now on the Scottish side without some new info 

Monica

Joe, from your pdf that you attached, the Master in Master McLean Sutherland is I believe 'Walter'.

Monica

[despair]

As far as I can tell a Messenger at Arms is not really a military title but a Court official.Is there any other evidence that this man was a Captain in the military?

Regards
Roger

[MonicaL]

That 1841 entry is the only main reference I think we had. No sign of him in later census, other that potentially son and daughter working in 1851..by which point Jessie Sutherland had married James. To 100% exclude these Forfar entries, a search would need to be done to try and find either a marriage or death for Jessie and brother Walter.

Roger, you mentioned a possible daughter Jane, for Captain John. Could this be a reference to her in later years in England
Monica