Tower Hamlets Volunteer Brigades Tillman

[John1935]

Walter John Tillman b. 1875- d. 1962 ??
Well thought I might try the above Gent again - Details on London /Middlesex Splintered families Post page 1 .

It does seem Westoe -
As one gets yet older so fuzzy logic gets even more fuzzy, but here goes anyway - since last visited I had found more about Walter's father John TILLMAN ( with thanks to 'Auntie's' hint about him a conductor in a Tower Hamlets Band), in fact firstly John was Band master for The United Forester Band of Court Vulcan (1871) then in 1879 Band Sergeant John Tillman  Reg No. 1541 of the Tower Hamlets Volunteer Rifle Brigade was appointed Bandmaster, "and the Band played on" under his leadership, till he retired in 1895.

Now this is where the Fuzzy logic comes in regarding his son Walter John -

1. It appears that Tower Hamlets also had a Royal Engineers Section.

2. When WWI started Walter would have been already 39 yrs old, but if he might( one fuzzily thinks) have followed Father and joined Tower Hamlets Volunteers ( Today's Territorials) he would being trained and have been of great use.

The thing is how an earth do we find that out

Need his Army joining papers if possible and leaving - had he been injured ?

Still have a long unknown gap between marriage in 1926 and  death in 1962.

Have of recent been in touch with Winchester where it does appear that The Green Jackets, and hence some of Tower Hamlets thingys also, and am awaiting further news from them.

Thank you in advance for any help you can give.  Best and Happy New year to all.

John1935

[jim1]

The Tower Hamlets Engineers (Volunteers) were attached to 2 Infantry Divisions during WW1.
They also raised a Rifle Batt.
Why do you believe he was RE ?
As it turns out there is a Medal Roll entry for a Walter John Tillman RE. Cpl. (Act. Sgt.) no. 143960.
It doesn't look like his WW1 records have survived.
There's no entry on the SWB Roll so if he was ever wounded he wasn't discharged.
FindMyPast doesn't have a pre war record for him.
He was awarded the BW & V Medals so didn't go overseas until 1916 at the earliest.
This may have been because (a) if a pre-war TF he may not have elected to serve overseas. This would not have been an option by 1916. (b) he was a civilian & conscripted in 1916.
(c) he volunteered.
More here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_Hamlets_Engineers

[km1971]

From memory the National Archives research guide for Volunteers advised that no Volunteer records survive in the National Archives apart from ones for Middlesex. It suggests you try local Record Offices. If Volunteers served during the Boer War they joined Volunteer Service Companies created by their parent regiment. They were given new numbers and their records are on FindMyPast as temporary Regulars. But the only indicaion of Volunteer membership is a statement on the Attestation Form of previous military service.

All TF soldiers had to sign the overseas obligation by the start off WW1or were discharged. He could have been kept at home during 1914 and 1915 either as a trainer or on home construction projects. Both TF RE companies were part of 1st London Division which also served in Malta  before going to France in 1916.

Ken

[John1935]

Thanks for the info Jim & Ken
This is a reply that I received from Hampshire Archives, so hope I can at least get more on Walter's father ( John Tillman 1845 - 1895 ).

" We do hold here amongst our collections records of the Royal Green Jackets (HRO reference 170A12W). This collection does hold the following for the 17th London Regiment, Tower Hamlet Rifles (Rifle Brigade):
 
Muster rolls from 1920-1930 (reference 170A12W/D/4605) Army book 358 Odd numbers 66990001 to 6699888
Book: 1st Tower Hamlets Rifles, later become 9th Rifle Brigade; Dedicated to Dad and the brave men’; contains photographs and lists of officers and other ranks (reference 170A12W/D/4059) dated 1939-1945
 
As you mentioned a band connection, the collection also contains a list of Bandmasters of all regiments of the army 1881-1974 (reference 170A12W/D/0871)
 
If any of the above are of interest, then you would be most welcome to visit our office to view them : http://www3.hants.gov.uk/archives/visiting-hals.htm   If you would like to search  the descriptions of this collection, then this can be done using our on-line catalogue : http://calm.hants.gov.uk/  You may find more items of interest ! "

In the meantime will follow thru the info you have kindly given me and no doubt come back, I have Walters Medal card, which as it has the family's address on it is the correct card - Nos; which might give clues ? on back are AFB 104-117 BW & VM  23/12/23.
ON front  - second line down is RE/101B250   third line is (I think) ditto ditto at bottom of page is AS/RE/169.
 Do any of these numbers show what regiment or when he joined - Please

Thanks again

Best

John 

p.s. When T.N.A say only records from Middlesex - didn't Tower hamlets come under London/Middlesex at that time ?

[jim1]

The numbers are references to where they appear on the Roll.
His no. 143960 is his 1917 number. The TF were re-numbered in 1917 meaning he had another number before that probably a 4 digit number.
They would have been sequential based on when they joined.
Assuming for the time being that he was a pre-war TF he would have been in one of these Coys. based on the above link:
1st London Divisional Engineers
CRE: Lt-Col G.W. Walters, TD
1st London Field Company, RE, Bethnal Green
2nd London Field Company, RE, Bethnal Green
1st London Signal Company, RE HQ and No 1 Section, Bethnal Green
No 2 (1st London) Section, attached 1st London Brigade
No 3 (2nd London) Section, attached 2nd London Brigade
No 4 (3rd London) Section, attached 3rd London Brigade

It also says this about men who hadn't volunteered for overseas service:
On 15 August the TF was ordered to separate men who had volunteered for overseas service from the Home Service men, and on 31 August it was authorised to begin forming Reserve or 2nd Line units composed of Home Service men and recruits.
The 1st. Div. went overseas 1914/15 but as he doesn't have the 14/15 Star didn't go with them that's what makes me believe he didn't sign up for overseas service as a TF.
One route would be to locate the W. Hampstead Absent Voter's list which may say which Coy. he was in.
The other route are the 1/Div. RE diaries which are on Ancestry which may name him at some point but this would mean reading them page by page from Jan. 1916.
The 2/1st. (London) Field Coy. RE (TF) embarked for France Feb. 1916 so may have gone with them.
Re-designated 512 Coy. RE.

[John1935]

Thanks again Jim

So if Walter didn't go across till 1916, by then he would have been 41 years old, first question is were they conscripted at that age and second is if he was conscripted
, would he have reached the rank of acting sergeant in such a short time without having been with the Tower Hamlets, do you think Jim.

Best

John

[km1971]

Here is a link to the 1914-1918.net guide to 1917 renumbering - http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-royal-engineers-in-1917/

Men renumbered were given numbers above 400001. Numbers below that were for 'regulars' which included men not in the TF RE at the time of renumbering. So with a number 143960 it is clear that there was a break from his pre WW1 TF service to his service in the RE at the end of the war. Without his record, or him as an informant on a BMD type certificate it is difficult to say what he was doing.

Although his service record had not survived - although there is an outside chance he was serving after 1920, and hence his papers will be with the MOD - the record of 143961, Frederick Middleton are on Ancestry. These show he enlisted in the RE in January 1916. Middleton's final appointment was also as an Acting Sergeant. So Tillman received his number at the same time. but whether he re-enlisted in January 1916 or transferred into the RE is (again) not known.

The army form on the reverse of his medal card is a request for medals.

Ken

[John1935]

Thanks Ken

He does appear with sister at the Sumatra road address on the two per year E.Rolls from and including 1919 till 1924 when he married Elizabeth Frett ( a widow) on the marriage cert he is down as 'Clerk in the Admiralty'  and living in Brixton, though what that has to do with the price of cheese I don't know !

Anyway shows he didn't reenlist.

Best

John

[Westoe]

Hello John,

I've just happened on a link that may prove useful. It is WWI ORBATS (Order of Battle stats) for segments of the Royal Engineers but I have to quit now, so will leave it with you.

https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/maps/units/10/royal-engineers/1st-london-field-company/

Cheers,
Westoe