Hamill Family Portadown

[shanreagh]

...
 Patrick and Anne Hamill and the rest of the family. The problem being the only couple with those names could not have been Teresa's parents. Duet to their ages. A Patrick Hamill a Baker when he died was far too young to be the Teresa I seeks father. As I latterly found out the daughter they had was born when the Teresa i am looking was 5 years married.

But as seen in Edward and Teresa's marriage record her father and mother are named as Patrick and Anne Hamill. ..
 My best guest for Teresa's birth date is in the 1840s. So her father and mother would have had to be born around the 1810s to approx 1820s. The search continues. Regards to all.

I just want to indicate that 'old' parents and parents having children after the marriages of their older children is not unusual. 

My mother  was born to a 48 year old mother and was younger than some of her nieces and nephews.  So I would not dismiss the birth of Martha Hamill on 9/2/1873 to Patrick and Mary Kerr Hamill on these grounds. 
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:68L2-BH42 (name spelt Hamile)

But I am finding this research difficult and looking back it is because I think we have not been given the information that helps us step from the known to the unknown and to potentially find details.

Could you please give us details on:

death of T(h)eresa Hamill McCann
death of Edward McCann
names of their children

We know they were married in Belfast in 1871. We know the marriage register shows that her parents were Patrick & Ann Hamill.

Do you know why Theresa was in Belfast?

dates of deaths/links for
Patrick Hamill
Ann/e Hamill

DOB/DOD if you have them for the children of Patrick and Ann Kerr Hamill. 

If the birth to old parents and marriage of an older daughter is possible, then perhaps Teresa was actually not married in her late twenties/thirties that a birth in the 1840s would indicate, but in her twenties or born even in 1850?

Actually on Family Search there is a Francis Hamill born to Patrick and Ann Kerr Hamill in 1866.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPR8-LYRW

and

Joseph Alvicia Hamill born  1869
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FRSR-GTL

and
Josepham Hamill baptised
Patricii Hamill and Annae Carr
born 14/5/1862

and
Peter Hamill born 1871
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FR33-L4L
Christening
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5K8-RMQ
Possible death new York 1900
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2W59-35G

and Teresa Hamill born 1876
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5YB-XY3
bapt
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6DWD-Y8J4

and Patricium Hamill baptised 6 May 1860 to
Patricii and Annae Carr
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6DL3-9TLZ
Maybe this death in New York in 1896, he was a baker
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2W6L-4QB


Annam Hamill baptised 17/3/1856 to
Patritii hamill
Anna Carr
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6XFZ-B92X

and Mary Catherine born 1864
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5YQ-8QH

and Lucinda born 1867
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FPBG-84W
baptised https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6XNK-8S99

and John (Joannnem) baptised  25/4/1858
parents Patricii Hamill and Annae Kerr


There are either two separate Patrick Hamill /Ann Carr/Kerr Hamill having children in Co Armagh or the data/dates have become mixed.

I have found a Thomas Hamill dying in the US in 1903 with parents named Patrick and Ann and a possible birth date of 1850.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WXJ-3G5
Is this the Thomas from the family you have mentioned?

One thing is certain the Teresa born 1876 cannot be the Teresa who marries in 1871.

One thing perhaps is that the Teresa marrying in 1871 may have used a second birthname or a confirmation name and is an early unfound, as yet, birth to Patrick and Ann in the 1850s.     

[mackers]

First many thanks for your work with this.

To begin on the 1871 marriage in St Peter's Belfast of Edward and Teresa her parents names are given as Patrick and Anne. So some years back when I first started looking up my family tree. I came across a place in Belfast called the Ulster Historical Foundation. Who were kind enough to give me a look at the details of the marriage. Which stated Teresa's Father and Mother were indeed Patrick and Anne Hamill nee Carr Portadown and that they needed the OK from the priests in Portadown for them to wed. So from that point I assumed the details to be right. But as other information was released to the internet the ages just didn't add up. The situation was even more complicated when i found that Edward and Teresa had actually been in Belfast for 2 years already and had a baby in 1869 called Patrick (which kind of suggests named after her father) Then to discover Patrick and Anne had another girl named Teresa as you pointed out in 1876 well that just blew this thing out of the water so to say.

As for Edward and Teresa's children they originally had 3 children Patrick Mary and George. but sad to report they all died in Scotland from Whooping cough. But then they had my Grandfather Francis McCann born in Glasgow who they returned to Belfast who survived along with others called George Lizzie and Edward. Another problem I had was the fact both Edward and Teresa's DOBs when they died where both 10 years out on their death certificates Teresa died in 1926 where her age at death was given as 66. Which was way off compared to her ages in the 1901/11 census records. As for most of the Hamill's you found I don't think they are from the same family. But I am not too sure just who her family are.

But I am very grateful for you help. Regards Ed

[mackers]

...
 Patrick and Anne Hamill and the rest of the family. The problem being the only couple with those names could not have been Teresa's parents. Duet to their ages. A Patrick Hamill a Baker when he died was far too young to be the Teresa I seeks father. As I latterly found out the daughter they had was born when the Teresa i am looking was 5 years married.

But as seen in Edward and Teresa's marriage record her father and mother are named as Patrick and Anne Hamill. ..
 My best guest for Teresa's birth date is in the 1840s. So her father and mother would have had to be born around the 1810s to approx 1820s. The search continues. Regards to all.

I just want to indicate that 'old' parents and parents having children after the marriages of their older children is not unusual. 

My mother  was born to a 48 year old mother and was younger than some of her nieces and nephews.  So I would not dismiss the birth of Martha Hamill on 9/2/1873 to Patrick and Mary Kerr Hamill on these grounds. 
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:68L2-BH42 (name spelt Hamile)

But I am finding this research difficult and looking back it is because I think we have not been given the information that helps us step from the known to the unknown and to potentially find details.

Could you please give us details on:

death of T(h)eresa Hamill McCann
death of Edward McCann
names of their children

We know they were married in Belfast in 1871. We know the marriage register shows that her parents were Patrick & Ann Hamill.

Do you know why Theresa was in Belfast?

dates of deaths/links for
Patrick Hamill
Ann/e Hamill

DOB/DOD if you have them for the children of Patrick and Ann Kerr Hamill. 

If the birth to old parents and marriage of an older daughter is possible, then perhaps Teresa was actually not married in her late twenties/thirties that a birth in the 1840s would indicate, but in her twenties or born even in 1850?

Actually on Family Search there is a Francis Hamill born to Patrick and Ann Kerr Hamill in 1866.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPR8-LYRW

and

Joseph Alvicia Hamill born  1869
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FRSR-GTL

and
Josepham Hamill baptised
Patricii Hamill and Annae Carr
born 14/5/1862

and
Peter Hamill born 1871
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FR33-L4L
Christening
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5K8-RMQ
Possible death new York 1900
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2W59-35G

and Teresa Hamill born 1876
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5YB-XY3
bapt
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6DWD-Y8J4

and Patricium Hamill baptised 6 May 1860 to
Patricii and Annae Carr
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6DL3-9TLZ
Maybe this death in New York in 1896, he was a baker
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2W6L-4QB


Annam Hamill baptised 17/3/1856 to
Patritii hamill
Anna Carr
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6XFZ-B92X

and Mary Catherine born 1864
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5YQ-8QH

and Lucinda born 1867
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FPBG-84W
baptised https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6XNK-8S99

and John (Joannnem) baptised  25/4/1858
parents Patricii Hamill and Annae Kerr


There are either two separate Patrick Hamill /Ann Carr/Kerr Hamill having children in Co Armagh or the data/dates have become mixed.

I have found a Thomas Hamill dying in the US in 1903 with parents named Patrick and Ann and a possible birth date of 1850.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WXJ-3G5
Is this the Thomas from the family you have mentioned?

One thing is certain the Teresa born 1876 cannot be the Teresa who marries in 1871.

One thing perhaps is that the Teresa marrying in 1871 may have used a second birthname or a confirmation name and is an early unfound, as yet, birth to Patrick and Ann in the 1850s.   

Many thanks for the above details. As you can see at times information given can look good on the face of it but down the line come back to bite you. The document I seen in UHF many years ago looks very suspect now. I believe the UHF was taken over by Ancestry. So that document might still be about. If i may add I can't get any birth record for my Great grandfather Edward as he was born during the famine and 2s 6p was a lot of money to register a birth. So looks like i was stumped there as well. Regards Ed

[heywood]

Do you have this marriage? There is a lot to unpick in the thread and not sure if I have seen it. Ancestry has it transcribed as ‘Harrel’.
Is it too late?

10th November 1852 Armagh
Patrick Hamel and Ann Carr
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632474#page/62/mode/1up

[mackers]

Thanks for the post in fact in the Catholic Register for the 10th of November 1852 they have Patrick's name in what looks like Latin as Patrinciny Hamel.

[heywood]

Sorry, I wrote the wrong date - it’s the 10th, I think. I have altered it.

It reads Patricius- Latin for Patrick.

So, do you think that is your ancestor?

[mackers]

I did think so it is the right time line. But another Patrick and Anne Hamill where about at the same time. He being a Baker but the dates for his death and ages of his children don't seem to fit.

My problem has always come down to ages. They never seem to be correct but you have to realise that the people then were mostly illiterate.

The Teresa I am looking for was born around 1845 to 1850. She was my great grandmother. Married to Edward McCann born around 1842 to 1846. Armagh more than likely Portadown. Regards Ed

[heywood]

If I recall, the Baker was the father of the second Theresa.

Patrick, the Baker died in 1897, aged 54 years, a widower, with son Peter was the informant.

I asked earlier re the 1851 census you mention. Could you give a link please.
“Patrick Hamill and Anne Hamill (Carr/Kerr) Breagh Tartaraghan O’Neill and West Armagh.
Patrick approx age 71 1851 census.”

Here is the death if a Patrick, residence, Breagh, aged 75 yrs in 1882
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1882/06406/4839833.pdf

I can’t see an earlier death for Anne though.

[mackers]

If I recall, the Baker was the father of the second Theresa.

Patrick, the Baker died in 1897, aged 54 years, a widower, with son Peter was the informant.

I asked earlier re the 1851 census you mention. Could you give a link please.
“Patrick Hamill and Anne Hamill (Carr/Kerr) Breagh Tartaraghan O’Neill and West Armagh.
Patrick approx age 71 1851 census.”

Here is the death if a Patrick, residence, Breagh, aged 75 yrs in 1882
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1882/06406/4839833.pdf

I can’t see an earlier death for Anne though.

The link was in Shanreagh's post that Patrick died in the workhouse. But he looks like the father of the Teresa i am looking for but again can't confirm.