Author Topic: What happened to Mary Ann Sumner after 1851?  (Read 2808 times)

Online LizzieL

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Re: What happened to Mary Ann Sumner after 1851?
« Reply #27 on: Saturday 08 September 18 16:18 BST (UK) »
Found 3 couples on freebmd, but there should be four
Edward Francis Howe married Sarah Gascoyne
William Oughton married Hannah Allan
Peter Cooper married Martha Ann Walker
as well as my James and Elizabeth

William Oughton and Sarah Gascoyne were missing from fre ???ebmd search
Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Scott, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott
Essex/Herts: Livermore, Holgate, Law, Day, Myson, Boyton
Norfolk/Suffolk: Stone, Alexander, Tipple, Ingate

Online LizzieL

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Re: What happened to Mary Ann Sumner after 1851?
« Reply #28 on: Saturday 08 September 18 16:45 BST (UK) »
I think Elizabeth was born in Chigwell d/o Benjamin Giffin and Catherine nee Collin. Benjamin was born in BS. This Elizabeth has sisters Susannah, Mary and Harriet.

and Benjamin is a gardener in 1851
Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Scott, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott
Essex/Herts: Livermore, Holgate, Law, Day, Myson, Boyton
Norfolk/Suffolk: Stone, Alexander, Tipple, Ingate

Offline verdia

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Re: What happened to Mary Ann Sumner after 1851?
« Reply #29 on: Sunday 23 February 20 02:24 GMT (UK) »
Mary Ann Sumner was born on 20 April 1836 in Bishops Stortford, daughter of James Sumner and his wife Ann nee Livermore. In 1841 she is with her parents in New Town Bishops Stortford. Her mother died in 1842 (buried 19 Feb) and James remarried. In 1851 she is with father James, stepmother Elizabeth (nee Ive she is the second stepmother - Ann and Austen have different mmn to James T) and three half siblings (Ann, Austen and James Tucker Sumner) in South Street BS. After this she seems to disappear.

Can anyone find her after 1851, please?


Offline verdia

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Re: What happened to Mary Ann Sumner after 1851?
« Reply #30 on: Sunday 23 February 20 02:40 GMT (UK) »
Hi, I am doing my Sumner family genealogy at the moment and are related to James Tucker Sumner born in Bishop Stortford in 1817. James 1st wife was Ann as you state and they had a daughter Mary Ann. Ann died not long after the 1841 census. James then married Elizabeth Tucker. I know it is Tucker because I have the death cert for their son James Tucker born in 1851 who died I think the following year. James only married twice as far as i know and the rest of the children after Mary Ann are James and Elizabeths. Their last born was our James Tucker Sumner born 1864. It was not unusual back then to name a child after one who had died. I think it is the 1911 census and Austen Sumner is boarding in London with his sister Mary Ann Ive (her married name) Austens half sister. She has two children. May I ask you how you fit into the Sumner family.  Kind Regards. I am a New Zealander. ps James and Elizabeth owned the Maltsters Arms Beerhouse in Bishop Stortford for 20 years until some time after 1871. there was a new owner by 1881.

Offline verdia

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Re: What happened to Mary Ann Sumner after 1851?
« Reply #31 on: Sunday 23 February 20 03:17 GMT (UK) »
Hi, Just further to my reply I gave you the wrong year or the census that has Mary Ann living in London. It is 1881.
The address is 70 Lang Bldgs, London Middlesex.   Mary Ann Ive Head    45 years born Bishop Stortord
                                                                                   Alfred Ive        son      19  "  "        "   Middlesex
                                                                                   Emily Ive         daur     16  "  "         "       "
                                                                                   Annie Ive         daur     14  "  "                  "
                                                                               Austin Sumner brother    34   "  "          " Bishop Stortford

Offline [Ray]

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Re: What happened to Mary Ann Sumner after 1851?
« Reply #32 on: Sunday 23 February 20 12:03 GMT (UK) »
Hi
H.A.L.S. has these . . . . .
James Sumner
     Ann Livermore
     Bishops Stortford
     marriage register
     2 Apr 1836
  John Parker of Bishops Stortford
     Mary Ann Sumner of Bishops Stortford
     Bishops Stortford
     marriage register
     4 Mar 1854
     
 
Perhaps this is why James wasn't in the pub in 1861 . . . . .
 
 James Sumner
     26 May 1855
     Bishops Stortford
     Defendant
     Weights and measuers conviction
     Hertfordshire Quarter Sessions
     QSCB/2 (Page 22)
     
 
Ray

 
 
"The wise man knows how little he knows, the foolish man does not". My Grandfather & Father.

"You canít give kindness away.  It keeps coming back". Mark Twain (?).

Online LizzieL

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Re: What happened to Mary Ann Sumner after 1851?
« Reply #33 on: Sunday 23 February 20 13:31 GMT (UK) »
Hi, I am doing my Sumner family genealogy at the moment and are related to James Tucker Sumner born in Bishop Stortford in 1817. James 1st wife was Ann as you state and they had a daughter Mary Ann. Ann died not long after the 1841 census. James then married Elizabeth Tucker. I know it is Tucker because I have the death cert for their son James Tucker born in 1851 who died I think the following year. James only married twice as far as i know and the rest of the children after Mary Ann are James and Elizabeths. Their last born was our James Tucker Sumner born 1864. It was not unusual back then to name a child after one who had died. I think it is the 1911 census and Austen Sumner is boarding in London with his sister Mary Ann Ive (her married name) Austens half sister. She has two children. May I ask you how you fit into the Sumner family.  Kind Regards. I am a New Zealander. ps James and Elizabeth owned the Maltsters Arms Beerhouse in Bishop Stortford for 20 years until some time after 1871. there was a new owner by 1881.

Mary Ann Sumner's mother (Ann Livermore) was the sister of my husband's 2 x great grandfather (Daniel Livermore jnr). There was a third sibling Mary who married William Bull, but it looks as if they separated after a brief marriage - they had no children. Mary Ann Sumner is mentioned in the will of Daniel Livermore snr's will. He was father to Ann, Mary and Daniel jnr and grandfather to Mary Ann. Ann Sumner nee Livermore was buried in B Stortford on 19 Feb 1842. As far as I can see she had no full siblings, or at least none still living when Daniel snr died on 23 June 1846 otherwise I would expect them to be mentioned in his will.
The Maltster's Arms is mentioned here
https://www.stortfordhistory.co.uk/guide15/upper-south-street/
Daniel Livermore snr was a maltmaker.
Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Scott, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott
Essex/Herts: Livermore, Holgate, Law, Day, Myson, Boyton
Norfolk/Suffolk: Stone, Alexander, Tipple, Ingate

Online LizzieL

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Re: What happened to Mary Ann Sumner after 1851?
« Reply #34 on: Sunday 23 February 20 13:50 GMT (UK) »
Hi
H.A.L.S. has these . . . . .
James Sumner
     Ann Livermore
     Bishops Stortford
     marriage register
     2 Apr 1836
  John Parker of Bishops Stortford
     Mary Ann Sumner of Bishops Stortford
     Bishops Stortford
     marriage register
     4 Mar 1854
     


Thanks, I had the marriage to John Parker, but hadn't got any further. Presumably he died and she later married a Mr Ive.
Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Scott, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott
Essex/Herts: Livermore, Holgate, Law, Day, Myson, Boyton
Norfolk/Suffolk: Stone, Alexander, Tipple, Ingate

Online LizzieL

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Re: What happened to Mary Ann Sumner after 1851?
« Reply #35 on: Sunday 23 February 20 13:56 GMT (UK) »
Got the marriage now
30 Nov 1856 in Lambeth to Robert Ive. Her father James Sumner is a fish monger. Presumably having lost his licence for the pub the previous year.

Added
Just seen 1871 census, he was still at pub, down as fishmonger and beer dealer, In 1851 he was coal merchant and beer dealer, but in 1841 he was a clerk.
Still looking for family in 1861.
Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Scott, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott
Essex/Herts: Livermore, Holgate, Law, Day, Myson, Boyton
Norfolk/Suffolk: Stone, Alexander, Tipple, Ingate